His answer came as, often before, as he guided my reasoning, in close conjunction with the
First, The Revelation, as 1:1-2 states is:
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God,
and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
is unthinkable that God fails, that the Revelation does NOT achieve its objective!
Corinthians 15:51-53, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, above, tell us that the "Rapture" of the CHURCH is FACT
-- the only dispute -- is WHEN!
So, such a momentous event MUST
appear SOMEWHERE IN THE REVELATION!
The ONLY PLACE is CAN BE is Revelation
Second, there is a discrepancy in chapter 5 of Revelation between
older bibles like the King James and Geneva bibles, and modern bibles.
differences in two texts:King James Bible -- Revelation 5: (differences
6And I beheld,
and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat
upon the throne.
8And when he had
taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and
golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made US unto our
God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth. English
Standard Version (typical and most recent modern bible version): (differences in bold):
6And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the
elders I saw(G) a Lamb standing,
as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with(H) seven eyes, which are(I)
the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
8And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders(J) fell down before the Lamb,(K) each holding a harp, and(L) golden bowls full of incense,(M) which are the prayers of the saints.
they sang(N) a new song, saying,
"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for(O) you were slain, and by
your blood(P) you ransomed PEOPLE
every tribe and language and people and nation,
you have made THEM(R) a kingdom
and priests to our God,
and THEY shall reign on the earth."
THESE DIFFERENCES ARE NOT DUE TO TRANSLATION, BUT TO THE DIFFERENCE IN UNDERLYING TEXTS FROM WHICH THEY ARE TRANSLATED
-- THE TRADITIONAL GREEK TEXT FOR THE KING JAMES AND GENEVA BIBLES -- THE CRITICAL TEXT FOR MODERN BIBLES
God showed me in Jesus' high priestly prayer in John 17 that his true Word will come down through history WITH his
people. This is true of the Traditional Greek text, but NOT true of the Critical text.
The King James and Geneva bible renderings are correct!
SEE MY PAGE
WHY THE KING JAMES BIBLE FOR MORE DETAILS.
Arguments favoring the TRADITIONAL GREEK TEXT, UNDERYING
THE KING JAMES, GENEVA, AND OTHER OLD BIBLES, OVER THE CRITICAL TEXT AND MODERN BIBLES ARE SO STRONG AS TO SETTLE THIS ISSUE
IN FAVOR OF THE KING JAMES READING.
Let the reader observe how the older
King James (and Geneva Bibles) regard these "ELDERS" as part of the Church, speaking in the FIRST PERSON, and
thus, they have just been Raptured, having been on earth shortly before.
NOW THEY A CLOTHED IN WHITE, WITH VICTORS CROWNS!
Whereas, in the modern versions
the narrator speaks in the THIRD PERSON, as though the redeemed or ransomed, and crowned, people, are OTHER than
That is, they are, presumably, angels (which do not have redemption),
since the speaker or narrator speaks of the redeemed group as some group of beings, OTHER than themselves.
So these two things must be solved together. That is, the meaning of 4.1 and the discrepancies in chapter 5.
If Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture then the King James is correct -- the redeemed are "US, WE."
If the modern version is correct, and the redeemed are "THEM, THEY," then, apparently, Revelation 4:1 is
not be the Rapture.
I say again, that according to the reasoning God gave me,
above, the Rapture is, of immense importance to the Church, and could NOT possibly be omitted from HIS Revelation
to HIS CHURCH!
The ONLY PLACE is CAN BE is Revelation 4:1!
Considering again Revelation 4 and 5 -- let me bring in the whole chapters 4 AND 5, below, for necessary OVERVIEW:
Consider the "scroll, or book" sealed with seven seals, in the right hand of God the Father, whom
"the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David," "The Lamb that was slain," --
ALONE -- HAS THE RIGHT TO OPEN.
THE LAMB (Jesus Christ) IS
REDEEMER OF BOTH ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH.
THE OPENING OF THE SCROLL LAUNCHES
THE GRAND FINALLY -- THE GRAND CONSUMMATION OF GOD'S PROGRAM HERE ON EARTH.
NEW HEAVENS AND EARTH WILL FOLLOW!
SO, IT IS UNTHINKABLE, THAT THE CHURCH
OR ISRAEL SHOULD BE ABSENT FROM THIS GREAT EVENT!
AGAIN REVELATION 1:1-2
STATE THAT THIS IS GOD'S REVELATION THROUGH CHRIST TO THE CHURCH.
HOW COULD NON REDEEMED ANGELS SING SUCH A SONG FROM THEIR HEARTS, BEING BY THEMSELVES?
In Revelation 4, below, it is SO OBVIOUS, that the Elders, in white robes, with crowns, ARE REDEEMED, REWARDED
NO WONDER THEY SING THE NEW SONG IN CHAPTER 5, BELOW.
THIS IS THE VIEW OF MANY COMMENTATORS, ALTHOUGH, APPARENTLY MOST, HOLD THE RIDICULOUS VIEW THAT THESE ELDERS ARE
Let's look at Revelation 4:
this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking
with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and
a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I
saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there
were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and
round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face
as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night,
saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for
ever and ever,
10The four and twenty elders fall down
before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,
11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory
and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
look at Revelation 5:
1And I saw in the
right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy
to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read
the book, neither to look thereon.
one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to
open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the
elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth
into all the earth.
7And he came
and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue,
and people, and nation;
hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the
elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive
power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in
the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon
the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Another detail in 5:8 is the "prayers of the saints."
-- the total immensity of this occasion in regard to God's two redeemed peoples, the Old and New Testament saints, and the
breaking of the seals and opening of the great book of the final judgement of God on an unrighteous earth and the vindication
of the saints
-- All this demands the presence of both redeemed groups.
Thus, the 24 elders are the 12 elder-heads of the tribes of Israel, plus, the 12 Apostles of Christ.
With immense, whole hearted, thanksgiving and worship to God, they sing this great song of redemption.
Matthew 27:50-54, I believe, shows a mini-resurrection.
when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the
bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy
city, and appeared unto many.
when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they
feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. This would accord with Feast of First Fruits which coincides with the day of Christ's resurrection.
9And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into
the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your
harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave
the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish
of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Thus it is expected that a representative group
of old Testament saints would be present at the gathering in Revelation 5.